I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
I'm told.

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Hi, Jeff -

You are not under IFR until you have received an IFR clearance including the
words "cleared to". If you departed VFR (without an IFR clearance and
release), you are not IFR and must obey VF Rules. Once airborne, you
contact ATC with something like "ABC Approach (or center), N1234 off Podunk
Field, IFR to Niceville, request clearance." They will assign you a squawk
code, wait to identify you on radar, then give you your clearance and
instructions (inlcuding altitude). Until then, you maintain VFR, including
altitude.

But see http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html .

Stan


"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message
news:BE2C303C.4C813%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@wizardofdr aws.com...
>I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I
> wanted
> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be
> faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or
> clearance.
> I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per
> my
> flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
> came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
> I'm told.
>
> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my
> flight
> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> altitude until I was given specific instructions?
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
>
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.wizardofdraws.com
>
> More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.cartoonclipart.com
>

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
>plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
>altitude until I was given specific instructions?

The salient items of a clearance that tell you you are operating under IFR
are:
1. Clearance Limit
2. Route (which could be "as filed")
3. Altitude


You did state that the plan was to "open your flight plan in the air".

If your only conversation with ATC went as you report:

=======================
Jeff: XYZ approach, N123WD
ATC: N123WD, squawk 5547
======================

Then at the time you were given a squawk code, you were still operating
under VFR. You had not received any clearance from ATC.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
> I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
> flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
> came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
> I'm told.
>
> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> altitude until I was given specific instructions?

You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller
first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in
radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply
non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared
direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via
direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that
order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT
acronym).

What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan".
In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR,
the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming
class E airspace).

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws wrote:

> I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

Hi Jeff,

This happened to me once leaving KMBO with a ceiling of 2000. Controller
advised me that I could leave VFR and pick up my clearance when I contacted
approach. So, I departed per usual VFR rules, and when I contacted
approach, I said:

Jackson, 43 lima climbing through 700 feet out of Madison, ready to recieve
IFR clearance.

ATC came back and said, 43 Lima, cleared to Covington LA as filed, climb to
5000, squawk 1234. I think, by me saying "ready to receive clearance",
triggered the response. I read back my response, ATC responded read back
correct and off I went into the white wild yonder. I wasn't about to enter
any clouds without hearing the CRAFT response.

> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.

<snip>

> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> altitude until I was given specific instructions?

I would suspect, until you hear "CRAFT" from ATC, you are still under VFR
rules.

Allen

Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

Hey, Jeff, since you received a lot of answers to your direct question, I
thought I'd take a different slant with your post. In response to the
above quote, consider this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html

This article, coupled with a "learning" experience I had last summer have
taught me to really ensure there are comfortable VFR conditions for many
miles surrounding the airport before I launch VFR expecting to pick up an
IFR clearance in the air.

Just something to consider for future flights.

--
Peter







----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article >,
"Peter R." > wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
> > On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> > if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> Hey, Jeff, since you received a lot of answers to your direct question, I
> thought I'd take a different slant with your post. In response to the
> above quote, consider this article:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html
>
> This article, coupled with a "learning" experience I had last summer have
> taught me to really ensure there are comfortable VFR conditions for many
> miles surrounding the airport before I launch VFR expecting to pick up an
> IFR clearance in the air.
>
> Just something to consider for future flights.

The avweb article doesn't say who the pilot was talking to on the ground.
If it's FSS, I could see that happening.

On the other hand, small airports often have direct comm with ATC; the guy
you're talking to on the ground is the same guy you'll be talking to in the
air. In a situation like that, it's hard to see how things could get lost.

Roy Smith > wrote:

> On the other hand, small airports often have direct comm with ATC;

True, but many airports in mountainous areas do not. These are the
airports where it might be tempting to depart VFR rather than wait 10 to 15
minutes for the inbound IFR arrival to land and cancel.

In good visibility, high ceiling weather, departing VFR wouldn't be an
issue. In marginal VFR weather where one might not be able to raise ATC in
the air without climbing into the clouds despite being told that one could,
it will be an issue. I discovered this butt clenching experience and I
won't do it again.

--
Peter







----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

I could argue that "cleared to" is by itself insufficent. Even more significant
is to hear "maintain XXXXX altitude."

Roy Smith wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
> > I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> > constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
> > to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> > I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> > if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
> >
> > I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> > given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
> > I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
> > flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
> > came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
> > I'm told.
> >
> > So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
> > plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> > altitude until I was given specific instructions?
>
> You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller
> first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in
> radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply
> non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared
> direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via
> direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that
> order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT
> acronym).
>
> What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan".
> In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR,
> the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming
> class E airspace).

Roy Smith wrote:

> On the other hand, small airports often have direct comm with ATC; the guy
> you're talking to on the ground is the same guy you'll be talking to in the
> air. In a situation like that, it's hard to see how things could get lost.

The guy who wrote the article really knows his stuff. He is a working
controller, smart, has a great attitude, and is a NATCA safety representative.

He really drives the point home about biz jets launching VFR. The performance
requirements and distances covered can get you in trouble in a hurry, much more
so than with a Skylane.

A Lieberman wrote:

>
> ATC came back and said, 43 Lima, cleared to Covington LA as filed, climb to
> 5000, squawk 1234. I think, by me saying "ready to receive clearance",
> triggered the response.

No, he came right back with your clearance because he knew exactly where
you were. It had nothing to do with your being ready to copy a
clearance. Nobody gets an IFR clearance unless the controller knows
where you are.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:08:37 -0800, wrote:

>I could argue that "cleared to" is by itself insufficent. Even more significant
>is to hear "maintain XXXXX altitude."

Shouldn't there also be a "route" included? (i.e. Cleared to xxx, via as
filed, maintain 6000)




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Lot's of good answers given. Welcome to the learning portion of your
lifelong IFR classroom.

I would add that if you ever find yourself changing altitude without ATC
prompting or as the result of a specfic clearance (plan means nothing),
something is wrong.

Hey, don't stop filing on those VFR days - it really helps learn the
system without IMC distractions.

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
> I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
> flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
> came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
> I'm told.
>
> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> altitude until I was given specific instructions?

On 2/6/05 8:58 PM, in article , "Stan
Prevost" > wrote:

> Hi, Jeff -
>
> You are not under IFR until you have received an IFR clearance including the
> words "cleared to". If you departed VFR (without an IFR clearance and
> release), you are not IFR and must obey VF Rules. Once airborne, you
> contact ATC with something like "ABC Approach (or center), N1234 off Podunk
> Field, IFR to Niceville, request clearance." They will assign you a squawk
> code, wait to identify you on radar, then give you your clearance and
> instructions (inlcuding altitude). Until then, you maintain VFR, including
> altitude.
>
> But see http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html .
>
> Stan
>
Thanks Stan. I learn something from every flight nowadays.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 2/6/05 9:11 PM, in article ,
"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws
> > wrote:
>
>> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
>> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
>> altitude until I was given specific instructions?
>
> The salient items of a clearance that tell you you are operating under IFR
> are:
> 1. Clearance Limit
> 2. Route (which could be "as filed")
> 3. Altitude
>
>
> You did state that the plan was to "open your flight plan in the air".
>
> If your only conversation with ATC went as you report:
>
> =======================
> Jeff: XYZ approach, N123WD
> ATC: N123WD, squawk 5547
> ======================
>
> Then at the time you were given a squawk code, you were still operating
> under VFR. You had not received any clearance from ATC.
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Your scenario was on the money, thanks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 2/6/05 9:46 PM, in article ,
"Roy Smith" > wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
>> I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
>> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
>> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
>> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
>> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>>
>> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
>> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
>> I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
>> flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
>> came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
>> I'm told.
>>
>> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
>> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
>> altitude until I was given specific instructions?
>
> You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller
> first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in
> radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply
> non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared
> direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via
> direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that
> order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT
> acronym).
>
> What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan".
> In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR,
> the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming
> class E airspace).

Thanks for answering.
Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first. It was
a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get clearance
on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a plan
in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work off.

I suppose I should have used the word 'expected' instead of required.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 2/6/05 10:04 PM, in article , "A
Lieberman" > wrote:

>
> I would suspect, until you hear "CRAFT" from ATC, you are still under VFR
> rules.
>
> Allen

Yep, thanks. There wasn't much chance of actual anyway. Everything was at
12K.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 2/6/05 11:35 PM, in article
, "Peter R."
> wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
>> On the ground, they told me it would be faster
>> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> Hey, Jeff, since you received a lot of answers to your direct question, I
> thought I'd take a different slant with your post. In response to the
> above quote, consider this article:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html
>
> This article, coupled with a "learning" experience I had last summer have
> taught me to really ensure there are comfortable VFR conditions for many
> miles surrounding the airport before I launch VFR expecting to pick up an
> IFR clearance in the air.
>
> Just something to consider for future flights.

Yessir, learned that one back in November during a couple of flights with
actual. Ceilings can vary quite a bit from reported as I found out, so I
won't be launching without a VFR safety net.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 2/7/05 2:47 PM, in article
, "Maule Driver"
> wrote:

> Lot's of good answers given. Welcome to the learning portion of your
> lifelong IFR classroom.
>
> I would add that if you ever find yourself changing altitude without ATC
> prompting or as the result of a specfic clearance (plan means nothing),
> something is wrong.
>
> Hey, don't stop filing on those VFR days - it really helps learn the
> system without IMC distractions.
>

Filing IFR is too much fun not to do it as often as I can. And anytime I can
have a second set of eyeballs working for me...
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws > wrote:
> Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.

It sounds like things happened in two chunks. Within a single call, the
elements will (or at least should be) in CRAFT order, but you had it broken
up into two parts.

First, he gave you a transponder code. You entered that, he found you on
radar, and he declared "radar contact". Now he can apply IFR radar
separation rules, which greatly reduces the amount of airspace he needs to
dedicate to you.

Next, he gave you your clearance. You already had a code and a frequency,
so he just gave you the new stuff, in CRAFT order, i.e. just the CRA part.

Wizard of Draws wrote:

> Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first. It was
> a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get clearance
> on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a plan
> in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work off.

I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you were not being
issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

Dave Butler > wrote:
> I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you
> were not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

Actually, he did get it in CRAFT order. On any given transmission,
any or all of the elements are optional, but the ones that are given
will be in the right order. In this case, the only one included was
the T, and it was in the right order :-)

If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
transmission, even for trivial things:

"left on charlie, ground point eight" (route, frequency)

"cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading" (clearance limit, route)

"make a left downwind for 34, contact tower 118.57" (route, frequency)

The one exception I can think of is "Squawk VFR, frequency change
approved".

Roy Smith wrote:

> If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
> transmission, even for trivial things:

Quite so. Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out, Roy.

The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.



Dave Butler wrote:
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
>
>> Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.
>> It was
>> a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get
>> clearance
>> on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a
>> plan
>> in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work
>> off.
>
>
> I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you were
> not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

On a takeoff clearance the last thing that should be said is cleared for
takeoff.



Roy Smith wrote:

> Dave Butler > wrote:
>
>>I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you
>>were not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.
>
>
> Actually, he did get it in CRAFT order. On any given transmission,
> any or all of the elements are optional, but the ones that are given
> will be in the right order. In this case, the only one included was
> the T, and it was in the right order :-)
>
> If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
> transmission, even for trivial things:
>
> "left on charlie, ground point eight" (route, frequency)
>
> "cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading" (clearance limit, route)
>
> "make a left downwind for 34, contact tower 118.57" (route, frequency)
>
> The one exception I can think of is "Squawk VFR, frequency change
> approved".

Newps wrote:
> The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
> give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.

How do you know it was an IFR squawk?

> A VFR one won't give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.

By VFR squawk do you mean just 1200, or do you mean any of a set of
codes which ATC tags as not an IFR aircraft?

Jose
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 2/8/05 8:20 AM, in article ,
"Roy Smith" > wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>> Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.
>
> It sounds like things happened in two chunks. Within a single call, the
> elements will (or at least should be) in CRAFT order, but you had it broken
> up into two parts.
>
> First, he gave you a transponder code. You entered that, he found you on
> radar, and he declared "radar contact". Now he can apply IFR radar
> separation rules, which greatly reduces the amount of airspace he needs to
> dedicate to you.
>
> Next, he gave you your clearance. You already had a code and a frequency,
> so he just gave you the new stuff, in CRAFT order, i.e. just the CRA part.

Aha! Thanks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:25:23 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>> The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
>> give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.
>
> How do you know it was an IFR squawk?

Dave

Though, I can't answer your question in regards to the post, I know that at
JAN, if I request local VFR, they will ask me to squawk 0101 through 0150.
If I ask for a local IFR clearance, they will have me squawk 0151 through
0199.

Maybe the same works for cross country trips, e.g last two digits for VFR
ends between certain numbers???

Allen

You might squawk 0177, but never 0199.

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message =
...
>=20
>=20
> Though, I can't answer your question in regards to the post, I know =
that at
> JAN, if I request local VFR, they will ask me to squawk 0101 through =
0150.
> If I ask for a local IFR clearance, they will have me squawk 0151 =
through
> 0199.
>=20
>=20
> Allen

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 04:12:34 GMT, John R. Copeland wrote:

> You might squawk 0177, but never 0199.

DUHHHHH, Thanks John for the clarification.

Maybe the viz was too low in the cockpit, and I saw the 7's as 9's *big
smile*.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

>
> Though, I can't answer your question in regards to the post, I know that at
> JAN, if I request local VFR, they will ask me to squawk 0101 through 0150.
> If I ask for a local IFR clearance, they will have me squawk 0151 through
> 0199.
>
> Maybe the same works for cross country trips, e.g last two digits for VFR
> ends between certain numbers???

There's no difference in the code numbers for IFR and VFR. What there is
are codes good internal to a facility and external to a facility.

A Lieberman wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:25:23 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:
>
>
>>Newps wrote:
>>
>>>The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
>>>give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.
>>
>>How do you know it was an IFR squawk?
>
>
> Dave
>
> Though, I can't answer your question in regards to the post, ... <snip>

Thank you, Allen. My question to newps was how he knew that in this particular
case, the squawk assigned was an IFR one.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> There's no difference in the code numbers for IFR and VFR. What there is
> are codes good internal to a facility and external to a facility.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but if you mean codes are assigned
willy-nilly regardless of whether the aircraft is VFR or IFR, that's not
entirely true.

Terminal facilities (and maybe centers) split parts of their beacon code
allocation into subsets. The computer is then programmed to perform the
different functions associated with whatever subset a discrete code is in.
For example: In one facility I recall 01XX was used for VFR, 04XX for Local
IFR, and there were a couple others. There were also several sub-subsets
for stuff like VFR w/MSAW or the local traffic/police helicopters.

When you entered the data to generate a track you hit one key for IFR and a
different key for VFR (actually VFR was assumed and no keystroke was
needed). The computer then assigned the next available discrete code from
the appropriate block.

IF a person knows what subset that particular facility has assigned to what
function it's possible to tell a VFR code from an IFR code.

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
>
> Though, I can't answer your question in regards to the post, I know that
> at
> JAN, if I request local VFR, they will ask me to squawk 0101 through 0150.
> If I ask for a local IFR clearance, they will have me squawk 0151 through
> 0199.
>

Really? They issue beacon codes above 0177? How do you enter them?

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> There's no difference in the code numbers for IFR and VFR. What there is
> are codes good internal to a facility and external to a facility.
>

There is a difference between internal codes used for IFR and those used for
VFR. VFR codes don't activate MSAW.

KP <nospam@please> wrote:
>Terminal facilities (and maybe centers) split parts of their beacon code
>allocation into subsets. The computer is then programmed to perform the
>different functions associated with whatever subset a discrete code is in.
>For example: In one facility I recall 01XX was used for VFR, 04XX for Local
>IFR, and there were a couple others. There were also several sub-subsets
>for stuff like VFR w/MSAW or the local traffic/police helicopters.

But, none of this is really important to pilots. Pilots have no way
of knowing how a facility allocates their codes, and even if they
caught onto some patterns over time, the facility is free to change
their internal practices without any notice to pilots.

This originally came up because somebody suggested that a pilot might
determine if they are IFR or VRF based on what kind of code they got
and act accordingly. I think that would be rather foolish.

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> Really? They issue beacon codes above 0177? How do you enter them?

0200, perhaps?

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> 0200, perhaps?
>

That's beyond the 0151 to 0199 range.

>>> Really? They issue beacon codes above 0177? How do you enter them?

>>0200, perhaps?

> That's beyond the 0151 to 0199 range.

Don't be silly. 0200 has a two, and three zeros. That adds up to
two. (it's those zeros that bring it down) 0199 has only one zero, a
one, and TWO nines. It's way bigger than 0200. So, 0200 has to be
less than 0199

Any fool can see that 0200 is bigger than 0151, because two hundred is
bigger than one hundred fifty one.

So, 0200 is right in the proper range, between 0151 and 0199.

Jose <d>
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Don't be silly.
>

I'll continue my practice of not being silly.


>
> 0200 has a two, and three zeros. That adds up to two. (it's those zeros
> that bring it down)

The zeros do not bring it down. Zeros have no effect on addition. You're
confusing addition with multiplication.

"KP" <nospam@please> wrote in message
...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
>> There's no difference in the code numbers for IFR and VFR. What there
>> is
>> are codes good internal to a facility and external to a facility.
>
> Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but if you mean codes are assigned
> willy-nilly regardless of whether the aircraft is VFR or IFR, that's not
> entirely true.
>
> Terminal facilities (and maybe centers) split parts of their beacon code
> allocation into subsets. The computer is then programmed to perform the
> different functions associated with whatever subset a discrete code is in.
> For example: In one facility I recall 01XX was used for VFR, 04XX for
> Local IFR, and there were a couple others. There were also several
> sub-subsets for stuff like VFR w/MSAW or the local traffic/police
> helicopters.
>
> When you entered the data to generate a track you hit one key for IFR and
> a different key for VFR (actually VFR was assumed and no keystroke was
> needed). The computer then assigned the next available discrete code from
> the appropriate block.
>
> IF a person knows what subset that particular facility has assigned to
> what function it's possible to tell a VFR code from an IFR code.

There's also the possibility (more like probability) that the aircraft in
question was being treated as a pop-up in which case the controller would
assign a VFR code by default.

Once the controller had figured out who, what,and where he'd issue the IFR
clearance and a revised (IFR) code.

> You're
> confusing addition with multiplication.

Addition and multplication are the same. 2+2 = 2x2 QED.
Lemma: exponentiation is the same too. 2^2 = 2x2 = 2+2. BFD.

And zeros have a big effect on addition. 20+2 is not the same as 2+2,
and the only difference is that piddly zero.

bonus information: 25(dec) = 31(oct). Therefore Christmas is the
same as Halloween.

Jose
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Addition and multplication are the same. 2+2 = 2x2 QED.
>

Try it with a number other than 2.


>
> Lemma: exponentiation is the same too. 2^2 = 2x2 = 2+2. BFD.
>

Let's get your basic arithmetic up to speed before we move on.


>
> And zeros have a big effect on addition. 20+2 is not the same as 2+2, and
> the only difference is that piddly zero.
>

20 is not the same as 2.

Because he was asking for an IFR clearance. The controller reaches over
and looks for that airplanes strip and reads him the squawk off the strip.



Dave Butler wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>> The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
>> give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.
>
>
> How do you know it was an IFR squawk?

Jose wrote:

>> A VFR one won't give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk
>> will.
>
>
> By VFR squawk do you mean just 1200, or do you mean any of a set of
> codes which ATC tags as not an IFR aircraft?

There are certain codes which have the low altitude alert inhibited.
Here at BIL they are any code that starts with 02 and 04. All other
codes, except those starting with 12, can generate a low altitude alert.

KP wrote:


> There's also the possibility (more like probability) that the aircraft in
> question was being treated as a pop-up in which case the controller would
> assign a VFR code by default.

But he said on initial contact that he was ready to copy his IFR
clearance. That statement alone will cause the controller to look for
that aircrafts IFR strip and not start massaging the ARTS keyboard or
FDEP to enter a clearance.

Newps wrote:
> Because he was asking for an IFR clearance. The controller reaches over
> and looks for that airplanes strip and reads him the squawk off the strip.

OK, well the OP never said he was asking for an IFR clearance before he was
assigned the squawk. Here's the posting in its entirety:

--- begin quote of original posting ---
"I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
I'm told.

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?"
--- end quote of original posting.

Doesn't matter. I understand now why you thought he was given an IFR code. Thanks.

>
>
>
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>> Newps wrote:
>>
>>> The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
>>> give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.
>>
>>
>>
>> How do you know it was an IFR squawk?


--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

On 2/10/05 11:05 AM, in article 1108051357.185092@sj-nntpcache-5, "Dave
Butler" > wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>> Because he was asking for an IFR clearance. The controller reaches over
>> and looks for that airplanes strip and reads him the squawk off the strip.
>
> OK, well the OP never said he was asking for an IFR clearance before he was
> assigned the squawk. Here's the posting in its entirety:
>
> --- begin quote of original posting ---
> "I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
> constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
> to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
> I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
> if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.
>
> I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
> given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
> I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
> flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
> came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
> I'm told.
>
> So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
> plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
> altitude until I was given specific instructions?"
> --- end quote of original posting.
>
> Doesn't matter. I understand now why you thought he was given an IFR code.
> Thanks.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>> Newps wrote:
>>>
>>>> The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
>>>> give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How do you know it was an IFR squawk?
>

I've noticed that our IFR squawk codes here in Atlanta almost always begin
with 5 and the VFR codes when we are practicing approaches begin with 0.
My code on Sunday began with 5, which put me in the frame of thought that I
was IFR.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws wrote:

>>
>
> I've noticed that our IFR squawk codes here in Atlanta almost always begin
> with 5 and the VFR codes when we are practicing approaches begin with 0.
> My code on Sunday began with 5, which put me in the frame of thought that I
> was IFR.

Don't go by that. I can take any IFR code and stop low altitude alerts
with a few keystrokes on my keyboard.

Wow!
1) You are not "IFR" in controlled airspace (anything but G) until you
are told "Cleared to <somewhere>".
2) You must tell ATC "I'd like to pick up my IFR". They will not simply
give it to you when you call up. Most likely its not even in front of
them.
3) If you were "IFR" you CANNOT change your altitude w/o ATC oking it.
4) You said it was "VFR". There really is no such thing. It can be
"VMC" or "VFR conditions" but VFR is a set of regulatory requirements,
not weather.

So, you can be IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC or VFR in VMC. I wouldn't
recommend VFR in IMC though.

-Robert, CFI

True, but the "magic" for IFR students to listen to is the "cleared
to". The rest could happen when VFR. A lot of students have a hard time
understanding the difference between radar services for instrument
approaches (practice approaches) and IFR approaches. Its easier to
train students to listen for the magic "cleared to <>" (the smart guys
will ask, "What about 'cleared to Land'").

BTW: Ron, will I see you in Mexico weekend after next with the rest of
us in the Mooney group? We're going down to pet grey whales.

-Robert, CFI

That was my impression as well. He called ATC, they have him a code.
However, there was no indication that the controller knew he was
interested in an IFR clearance.

On 2/11/05 2:34 PM, in article
. com, "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

> Wow!
> 1) You are not "IFR" in controlled airspace (anything but G) until you
> are told "Cleared to <somewhere>".
> 2) You must tell ATC "I'd like to pick up my IFR". They will not simply
> give it to you when you call up. Most likely its not even in front of
> them.
> 3) If you were "IFR" you CANNOT change your altitude w/o ATC oking it.
> 4) You said it was "VFR". There really is no such thing. It can be
> "VMC" or "VFR conditions" but VFR is a set of regulatory requirements,
> not weather.
>
> So, you can be IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC or VFR in VMC. I wouldn't
> recommend VFR in IMC though.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>
Thanks Robert.

Please keep in mind that, when I post anyway, I'm going to use a shorthand
version of events to relay the situation. It appears that you and the rest
of the posters understood my meaning when I said I was and it was, VFR. It
may get under your skin, but I'd rather save my time and fingers for drawing
instead of typing more than I really need to.

The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws wrote:

>
> The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
> he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
> "ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.

Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.

On 2/12/05 11:07 AM, in article , "Newps"
> wrote:

>
>
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
>
>>
>> The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
>> he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
>> "ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.
>
> Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
> to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
> is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
> both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
> radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.

It was the same guy, same frequency: Atlanta Approach on 121.0. I've talked
enough to him to recognize the voice. I'm not sure why I would have had a
VFR strip. I was departing an uncontrolled field.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.



Wizard of Draws wrote:
> On 2/12/05 11:07 AM, in article , "Newps"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Wizard of Draws wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
>>>he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
>>>"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.
>>
>>Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
>>to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
>>is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
>>both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
>>radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.
>
>
> It was the same guy, same frequency: Atlanta Approach on 121.0. I've talked
> enough to him to recognize the voice. I'm not sure why I would have had a
> VFR strip. I was departing an uncontrolled field.

On 2/12/05 1:33 PM, in article , "Newps"
> wrote:

> You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
> you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.
>

Not sure what you mean, but if you can explain and help me make it easier on
you guys, I'm all ears.

Did he put me in the system as a VFR flight, assign me a code, even though I
was still on the ground and couldn't be sure that I would make it into the
air to utilize it? Why would I be a popup when I was expected?

By two count, you mean I counted as two separate duties for his workload
assignment?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

When you called you were VFR. That's a one count. Then you were radar
identified and given a clearance. That's another one count. Had you
departed the field IFR you would only have been a one count because you
were never VFR. It's really neither here nor there from a pilots
perspective. He did not put you in the system as a VFR aircraft. He
wrote a VFR strip on you and then immediately filed it. He gave you the
transponder code off your IFR flight plan. Every facility counts their
traffic. The more traffic count the more you get paid. There's a lot
of scams and this one is borderline. Even though he wouldn't have done
anything different what you did counted as two. One of the greatest
scams is one of the centers, Cleveland or Indy I think, lets two
adjacent centers run airplanes that just barely nick their airspace and
has a letter of agreement set up so they don't have to talk to the plane.

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> On 2/12/05 1:33 PM, in article , "Newps"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
>>you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.
>>
>
>
> Not sure what you mean, but if you can explain and help me make it easier on
> you guys, I'm all ears.
>
> Did he put me in the system as a VFR flight, assign me a code, even though I
> was still on the ground and couldn't be sure that I would make it into the
> air to utilize it? Why would I be a popup when I was expected?
>
> By two count, you mean I counted as two separate duties for his workload
> assignment?

I think Jose is on to something. They scoffed at Gallileo at first too.
Illigitimi non carborundum est

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Addition and multplication are the same. 2+2 = 2x2 QED.
> >
>
> Try it with a number other than 2.
>
>
> >
> > Lemma: exponentiation is the same too. 2^2 = 2x2 = 2+2. BFD.
> >
>
> Let's get your basic arithmetic up to speed before we move on.
>
>
> >
> > And zeros have a big effect on addition. 20+2 is not the same as 2+2,
and
> > the only difference is that piddly zero.
> >
>
> 20 is not the same as 2.
>
>

"Brad Salai" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think Jose is on to something.
>

No, Jose is just on something.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Brad Salai" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I think Jose is on to something.
>>
>
> No, Jose is just on something.
>

This reminds me of something a friend recently told me regarding
substituting ridicule for humor.

>>I think Jose is on to something.
>>
> No, Jose is just on something.

For the first time, Steven P. NcNicoll made me laugh!

Jose